Markup Minutes 2006-06-29
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Minutes from Declarative Markup committee teleconference June 29, 2006
Attendees
- Alex Russell <alex@dojotoolkit.org>
- Anil Sharma <anil@vertexlogic.com>
- Coach Wei <coach@nexaweb.com>
- Eddie O'Neil <ekoneil@bea.com>
- Gustavo Munoz <gustavom@jackbe.com>
- Jim Grandy <jgrandy@openlaszlo.org>
- Jon Ferraiolo <jferrai@us.ibm.com>
- Lindsey Simon <lsimon@finetooth.com>
- Mark Schiefelbein <mark@backbase.com>
- Phil Berkland <berkland@us.ibm.com>
- Ted Thibodeau <tthibodeau@openlinksw.com>
- Vivienne van der Vooren <vvandervooren@seagullsoftware.com>
Absent
- Adam Peller <apeller@us.ibm.com>
- Alejandro Escalante Medina <alejandroe@jackbe.com>
- Charles Lowell <cowboyd@thefrontside.net>
- Chuck Ames <CAmes@seagullsoftware.com>
- Dave Johnson <djohnson@ebusiness-apps.com>
- David Frankel <david.frankel@sap.com>
- David Temkin <temkin@laszlosystems.com>
- Eric Nguyen <ericn@mercedsystems.com>
- Erik van Dongen <evandongen@seagullsoftware.com>
- James Margaris <jmargaris@nexaweb.com>
- Javier Gallego <Javier.Gallego@softwareag.com>
- Jeremy Chone <jchone@adobe.com>
- John Crupi <john.crupi@jackbe.com>
- Ken Fyten <ken.fyten@icesoft.com>
- Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
- Michael Peachey <mpeachey@tibco.com>
- Ruben Daniels <ruben@javeline.nl>
- Steven Pothoven <pothoven@us.ibm.com>
- Vincent Hardy <vincent.hardy@sun.com>
- William Shulman <will@mercedsystems.com>
Agenda
- Update on Interoperability committee discussions
- Introduction to XAP: XAP Executive Summary
- Continue work on Markup Use Cases And Requirements
Topic: Introduce Tibco/Dojo proposal
Link: Tibco Dojo Proposal Toolkit Loading, Markup Mixing
(Jon gave a 2 minute overview)
Ted: Openlink toolkit will be released next week with conditional script loading. Is this a feature that we want to support?
Jon: Some will argue that conditional script loading is a toolkit-specific feature. We may not want to address here right away except to say that best practice for toolkits are to load only what it needed.
Coach: Speaking for Dojo and XAP, Dojo has a requires/provides feature. XAP uses this feature from Dojo. Provides for only loading what is necessary and handles the caching of JS files.
Jon: There are crawl before you walk before you run issues. Right now we have toolkit interoperability issues at very basis levels where one toolkit will squash the initialization logic from another toolkit. We need to address problems like that first.
Lindsey: There are lots of toolkits and lots of interoperability problems. Are we going to list toolkits we are targeting and interoperability issues we see?
Jon: Agree that this is necessary. I created a skeleton web page, Interoperability State of the World, which I encourage people to fill out. I don't think we want to attempt to provide a comprehensive list of toolkits, but we can say that we know that with particular combinations of popular toolkits, this is what works and this is what doesn't work.
Lindsey: Yes, that fine.
Ted: Good that we have lots toolkits from the various members.
Topic: Introduce Alternate Hub using Namespaces
Link: Alternate Hub Proposal Using XML Namespaces
(Jon gave a 2 minute overview)
Jon: Any feedback on the Tibco/Dojo proposal vs the namespace approach?
Lindsey: I like the attribute approach in the namespace proposal
Anil: I agree.
Vivienne (actually stated later): My preference - I agree with the use of namespaces
Coach: XML namespace approach is consistent with normal industry practice and W3C's CDF standard.
Anil: Does this cover run-time?
Coach/Jon: Yes. Our prime focus is client-side HTML+JS.
Topic: James's proposed four requirements
Link: Markup Mixing Requirements From Nexaweb
- Re-use existing markup for existing toolkits as much as possible without restricting them.
- Specify how to put toolkit A widget into toolkit B widget.
- Optimize the scanning of the page and widget creation. Dojo scans (or can scan, there are options) the page to look for Dojo widgets, and other toolkits may do the same thing. That's one scan per toolkit, when only 1 total should be needed. The Dojo/Tibco proposal seems address this but that isn't specifically called out. (I'm thinking some shared code would scan the document once for the oa-embed tags)
- Be pleasant from an end-user perspective in that they have to do as little as possible.
Jon: Do people agree?
Coach: Of course I agree.
Topic: XAP Overview
Link: XAP Executive Summary
(Jon gave a 2 minute overview)
Jon: Coach, anything to add?
Coach: XAL can also be embedded inline within HTML markup. Also, you can use your own markup instead of XAL. Can think of XAL as reference markup on top of XAP.
Anil: Could you give more details on MCOs?
Coach: It's like the Dojo packaging facility. But allows each JS file to be a separate package for manageability.
Lindsey: Question for Coach - is there a problem on the XAP page for the link under downloading source?
Coach: Page is incomplete. Need to fix the page.
Topic: Discussion an Tibco/Dojo. namespaces, and XAP
Alex: We seem to be floating around the who's on top issue. What is primary? We may need to have an OpenAjax Alliance-blessed think on top, which seems like a good idea to me.
Jon: I agree. One thing on top that we bless. We have talked about this across multiple meetings.
Coach: I agree.
Anil: I agree. Need to converge on one.
RESOLUTION: There will be a single OpenAjax-blessed hub which is on top of OpenAjax-compatible toolkits
Jon: Alex, do you have any comments on the namespace approach?
Alex: Need to play well with HTML, not XHTML
Jon: Yes, I have been going up learning curves and reading articles about problems with XHTML. I agree that we are about working in HTML. My proposed way of expressing it: We can use XML namespaces, but if we do, it has to work with HTML, not just XHTML. Any objections to another resolution?
RESOLUTION: We can use XML namespaces, but if we do, it has to work with HTML.
Jon: Alex, have you looked at James's requirements?
Alex: They look OK.
Jon: They are so obvious and soconsistent with previous discussion, unless there is an objection, we should just accept them.
RESOLUTION: Accept James's four candidate requirements
Topic: Next steps
Jon: We have three separate issues: toolkit loading, markup mixing, and an event hub. I propose that we work on three separate documents for each topic. Furthermore, I propose that we divide up the work such that the two JavaScript-related proposals, loading and events, be addressed within the Interoperability committee and the markup mixing proposal be addressed in this commmittee. Does this make sense?
Alex: Makes sense to me.
Jon: Any objections?
(no objections)
Jon: OK, let's make that a resolution and present it to the Interoperability committee to make sure they are OK with it.
RESOLUTION: Interop committee will focus on toolkit loading and event hub. Markup committee will focus on markup mixing.
Jon: Alex, can you work on next versions of proposals in time for our next meeting in two weeks? I can help as you need and I am sure others can help.
Alex: Yes, I can do that.
ACTION: Alex to prepare revisions of existing proposals, split into three separate documents on toolkit loading, mixing markup and event hub.
(someone): What are features of event hub?
Alex: onload event management, event object hub, standardize particular events
