Mobile Minutes 2007-08-01

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URL: http://www.openajax.org/member/wiki/Mobile_Minutes_2007-08-01

Attendees

  • Rhys Lewis <rhys@volantis.com> - chair
  • Jon Ferraiolo <jferrai(at)us.ibm.com>
  • David Oliver <oliverdm@us.ibm.com>
  • Krishna Sankar <ksankar@cisco.com>
  • Paddy Byers <paddy.byers@gmail.com> - Aplix
  • Charles McCathieNevile <chaals@opera.com> (on IRC only because of Skype problems)
  • Gorm Haug Eriksen <gormer@opera.com> (on IRC only because of Skype problems)
  • Rotan Hanrahan <rotan.hanrahan@mobileaware.com>
  • Andrew Sledd <Andrew.Sledd(at)ikivo.com>

Original agenda

  • Agenda
    • Review - Jon
      • Purpose of the OOA
      • Mobile Ajax Discussions in OOA to Date
    • Things the Mobile Taskforce Might Pursue - Rhys
      • Initial Discussion about the list of mobile-related activites that OOA might pursue
        • White paper
        • written in collaboration with the OOA marketing group
        • characterise the state of the support for Ajax on mobile today
        • considerations for developers thinking of using mobile Ajax today
          • in particular differences in UI capabilities on mobile devices
          • supporting devices that are not top-end mobiles
      • Survey of support for Ajax in the mobile world
        • Request information from OOA members
        • Suitable process
      • Widgets
      • Device APIs that might be used by Ajax applications
        • for example, W3C DCCI
    • Roundtable - All
      • Attendee introductions and expressions of interest in activities
      • Items just discussed and/or additional ideas
    • Any other business?
    • Wrap up

Minutes

(copy/paste from IRC log)

  • 16:18 Joining chat room...
  • Started talking in oaa-mobile on onsdag 01.08.2007 16:18:43
  • simmons.freenode.net sets mode +n
  • simmons.freenode.net sets mode +s: room is now secret
  • #oaa-mobile [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
  • 16:52 -> ferraiolo has joined oaa-mobile
  • 16:54 -> Rhys has joined oaa-mobile
  • Rhys hi jon
  • 16:56 -> chaals has joined oaa-mobile
  • chaals morning all
  • 16:57 chaals (err, sort of...)
  • Rhys waves to chaals, even though it's evening here
  • chaals Morning Jon.
  • chaals thinks it is afternoon.
  • chaals to be precise, I had to interrupt my post-prandial siesta...
  • 16:59 chaals but then Spanish people happily make appointments for 8 or 9 in the "afternoon"
  • 17:01 Rhys asks Chaals whether he is planning to joint the call?
  • 17:02 ferraiolo chaals are you in spain, norway, australia, or ...
  • chaals Spain. Was planning to join, but Skype won't let me call the number...
  • 17:04 -> Rotan has joined oaa-mobile
  • -> asledd has joined oaa-mobile
  • chaals not sure why. Either number...
  • chaals waves to Rotan and Andy
  • Rotan waves back!
  • asledd Andy waves back too!
  • 17:05 asledd been a while. Hope yall are well.
  • 17:06 asledd asks if there is a dail in number that is supported by Skype?
  • chaals apparently not.
  • chaals
  • gorme is here
  • Rhys Rhys waves to Gorme
  • 17:07 gorme waves back
  • chaals wonders if we have everyone on Skype (and could therefore skip the phone bridge...)
  • 17:08 Rhys We're about to start. We'll try and capture things through IRC for those who can't access the bridge
  • asledd dropped off a bit earlier than expected
  • 17:09 Rhys http://www.openajax.org/member/wiki/Mobile_TF#Next_meeting
  • ferraiolo Rhys says:
  • ferraiolo Agenda is in email and on wiki page for task force
  • ferraiolo 3 or 4 items on the agenda
  • 17:10 ferraiolo First, ask Jon to do a review about OpenAjax objectives and some of the history
  • ferraiolo Then, Rhys will go through some of the items we might pursue
  • ferraiolo Then a roundtable session for people to discuss their interests, what they would like to see task force to do
  • 17:12 Rhys Jon: Alliance is promoting use of Ajax. We have a clear definition. Web applications running in HTML browsers using Javascript as programming language
  • Rhys - using features native to the browser without plugins
  • Rhys - in modern browsers means HTML, CSS, Javascript, xmlhttprequest, svg ...
  • 17:13 Rhys - mission is to promote the set of Ajax technologies. Not promoting Java, for example.
  • Rotan Note that some things are drifting outside the browser, such as Widgets. But basically the same operational environment as typical Ajax.
  • Rhys - so in mobile devices, it's the same sort of story, with the same set of technologies
  • 17:14 Rhys Jon - agrees with Rotan's point and notes that there is active discussion about widgets that use open technologies based on the browser within OOA right now
  • Rhys - the difference is only the container. OOA is likely to pursue that as within scope. Widgets on mobile devices are also likely to come within scope
  • 17:15 chaals [Is anyone following the work in W3C WAF group - which is about trying to get a container standard? At least Nokia and Opera are involved already there too]
  • Rhys Jon - Process issues. Process starts with members agreement. This covers the steering committee and the working groups. WGs are able to publish specifications.
  • 17:16 Rhys - here we are in a taskforce, which is distinct from a working group. It's a precursor for deciding whether or not to launch a working group
  • Rhys - TF might recommend formation of a formal working group
  • Rhys - TF might pursue new activities in existing working groups
  • chaals [For widgets I would suggest that we remain a TF and just gather comments for the existing W3C group]
  • Rhys TF- might decide that there is no further work for it and it disbands
  • 17:17 Rhys - TF normally last 6 months or so
  • Rhys - mission is to make a recommendation for formal work. It doesn't publish specifications
  • Rhys - TF could work on specifications, but can't be ratified until it goes through a WG process
  • 17:18 Rhys - We've had lots of discussion about mobile ajax over the last year. We had a session at the last F2F in March, and previously last October
  • Rhys - also discussion with W3C and internal discussion
  • 17:19 Rhys - meeting organised by Vodafone at 3GSM too. Opera presented last October advocating a single web vision with only one version of Ajax that supports both desktop and mobile
  • Rhys - sentiment was that the vision makes sense to the ajax community. Good to try and prevent fragmentation
  • 17:20 Rhys - leadership has been around embracing a one web approach
  • Rhys - there have been significant announcements including Opera, Nokia S60, Nokia Widgets, Apple iPhone...
  • 17:21 Rhys - the Nokia widgets are like Apple dashboard but for mobile
  • Rhys Jon invites questions or comments
  • 17:22 Rhys Rotan One comment is regarding the one web or one version of ajax. It gives the impression that a single solution might work across all devices
  • Rhys - our experience in the mobile web is that any solution needs to be aware of device characteristics, like screen sizes,
  • 17:23 Rhys - perhaps one aspect of the task force might be to enable ajax to take account of device characteristics
  • Rhys Jon - I agree. We should take the same baseline for the browser, but should take into account the specfics associated with mobile devices
  • 17:24 Rhys - this includes limitations in the devices, but also additional capabilities that such devices may bring
  • Rhys - could include integration with messaging and battery state etc.
  • 17:25 Rhys Rotan - existing ajax implementations tend to have conditional logic within the code to take account of differences between browsers. Won't scale to the mobile space
  • Rhys - Hopes that design principles might be one of the outcomes of the group
  • chaals [(nor do we want to ship lots of case statements...)]
  • Rhys Andrew - hopes that we might also be able to get commonality across the various vendors involved
  • 17:26 Rhys Jon - I agree, and indeed we've been trying to address this in the desktop space. Maybe it is a necessary thing and we need to get momentum
  • Rhys Andy - would hope its a central tennet even though it might be like chasing windmills!
  • 17:27 asledd [and btw Andrew is Andy is Andrew Sledd from Ikivo]
  • ferraiolo OK, Jon has given background and issues about directions. Now let's talk about things we might pursue and try to achieve
  • ferraiolo (Above is from Rhys)
  • 17:28 ferraiolo Rhys goes through list of possible activities to pursue. Basically 4
  • ferraiolo #1: A white paper covering the current state of the art
  • ferraiolo #2: A survey of the state of Ajax support in the mobile world
  • 17:29 ferraiolo #3: What we might do about mobile widgets
  • ferraiolo #4: Device APIs
  • ferraiolo Let's look at each in turn
  • ferraiolo White paper
  • ferraiolo This is a TF, not a WG, so standardizing isn't in first period of work
  • 17:30 ferraiolo At W3C, there are XGs that work on background things that might turn into WGs
  • ferraiolo White paper could be developed by Mobile TF and then published by Marketing WG
  • 17:31 ferraiolo Key thoughts about white paper - characterize status of Ajax on mobile devices today, it is available, there are apps, even though not complete as desktop, but possible to useful things even though not a complete implementation of major toolkits
  • 17:32 ferraiolo Also in scope of white paper, something like best practices, but at least considerations about things you need to do, such as device input restrictions, screen size, and resource constraints
  • ferraiolo Lots of desktop folks won't be as aware of these issues as those of us in the mobile industry
  • ferraiolo The idea of a white paper got a lot of support at F2F in March in NY
  • ferraiolo Survey
  • 17:33 ferraiolo This is an attempt to garner people's views of the state of mobile ajax today
  • ferraiolo Capabilities of devices, how the networks work
  • ferraiolo Would need a process for gathering this information
  • Rotan [So who are the audience for the White Paper? Developers? Web-based solution designers? Ajax implementors? Device manufacturers? Others? All of the above?]
  • 17:34 ferraiolo Issues about public vs private in terms of gathering this sort of informatoin
  • 17:35 ferraiolo Rhys responds to Rotan: from my point of view, towards people who are thinking of using Ajax on mobile devices today
  • ferraiolo Hesitate to tell device manufacturers how to implement Ajax
  • 17:36 ferraiolo For people building applications. Confirmation about that it is possible and here are issues you need to face.
  • ferraiolo Krishna: Need to talk about challenges facing developers
  • ferraiolo Rhys: Yes, maybe we need another line item
  • 17:37 Rotan [Much like the "Challenges" doc that the DIWG wrote :)]
  • 17:38 ferraiolo Jon: Discussion now or wait until after we review the four items?
  • ferraiolo Rhys: Because of time, let's finish agenda, then do roundtable
  • ferraiolo Rhys: Widgets
  • ferraiolo As Rotan pointed out, there is a need for apps to know about device characteristics and environment in which they run
  • 17:39 Rotan DCCI, OMA DPE, DDR etc...
  • ferraiolo Rhys: Also, APIs, where W3C has some efforts related
  • ferraiolo Rhys: Now, roundtable, with brief introduction
  • 17:40 ferraiolo Rhys: I'm CTO of Volantis, In content adaptation business for mobile devices. Use Ajax already for some of our products, but based on cut-down variants of underlying libraries, to create interesting interactive applications on mobile devcies
  • ferraiolo Rhys: Also involved in W3C, so I am interested in synergy between W3C and OpenAjax to make Web technologies more successful
  • 17:41 ferraiolo Andrew Sledd: I work for Ikivo. We do SVG-based products, primarily SVG players. We have some applications using Ajax-type technologies such as Mobile TV using dynamic data.
  • chaals [Chaals: I am chief Standards guy at Opera - the browser company. We have Ajax on an increasing number of mobile and other non-desktop devices, as well as browsers on lots of low-end feature phones. I am also involved in W3C - chair of WebAPI, member of various groups in MWI and elsewhere]
  • 17:42 ferraiolo Andy: We are interested in OpenAjax in mobile, but also beyond mobile.
  • ferraiolo Andy: Look forward to contribute in the future
  • 17:43 ferraiolo Andy: In terms of 4 proposed tasks, we look forward to refining those items. I like to look at Ajax as a colleciton of technologies, but browser as predominant application of these technologies. Thus, widgets also.
  • ferraiolo -- andy leaves --
  • asledd thanks the group and appologizes for having to depart early.
  • ferraiolo Rotan: CIO of Mobile Aware and chair of device description working group
  • 17:44 Rhys s/CIO/CIA/
  • ferraiolo Looking for adaptation moving over to embrace Ajax, moving content space into Ajax
  • <- asledd has disconnected (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  • ferraiolo Paddy: Aplix is from Java, best known for JVM, but in Japan also work with carriers and mfgers on projects
  • 17:45 ferraiolo How can we help create a same kind of environment for Ajax as we have for Java. In particular, enabling access to device features on mobile
  • ferraiolo Probably single biggest barrier to having web applications from where java apps live today.
  • 17:46 ferraiolo Secondly, looking for something to take advantage of Java infrastructure that exists today.
  • ferraiolo So, interested in device apis in general and in particular towards browser environment
  • ferraiolo Happy with the proposed tasks for tf. Hard part is how effective tf can be in promoting and communicating.
  • 17:47 ferraiolo Rhys: Feeling is that it is a bit early to pursue standards, but maybe will pursue later.
  • ferraiolo Rhys: At w3C, we have ubiquitous web working group. Has synergy with your interests. Particularly, access to device features and device characteristics.
  • 17:48 Rotan See - http://www.w3.org/2007/uwa/
  • ferraiolo David Oliver: With IBM software, particularly lotus, mainly java, but now getting into ajax via lotus connections and looking into mobile area and what technology space
  • ferraiolo David: Comfortable with proposed takss.
  • 17:49 ferraiolo Shankar: CISCO. Have worked at W3C and Web Services. Thinking about applications issues such as tagging and location. Interested in device apis for Ajax.
  • ferraiolo Had a good talk with Jon yesterday about MSA architecture from Java. Maybe some synergy there.
  • ferraiolo Think we are on the right track. Need to understand both challenges and opportunities.
  • 17:50 ferraiolo Good to develop frameworks and standardized APIs.
  • 17:51 Rhys asks chaals if he could say something about his interests in the task force and whether or not the items in the agenda are appropriate for the TF to work on
  • 17:52 chaals [currently I am interested in seeing the TF continue to maintain the goal of working within the framework of the web at large, and not in isolation. So far so good.]
  • ferraiolo Paddy: What happens from now?
  • chaals asks gorme to introduce himself too
  • 17:53 ferraiolo Rhys: What we have heard today is that line items in the agenda are in line with what people are interested in pursuing.
  • ferraiolo Rhys: I would propose that we start by trying to pull together the white paper.
  • 17:54 ferraiolo Rhys: We can draft a ToC and review and then ask people to review materials
  • chaals [We worked on integrating with device capabilities for some years now, using javascript as the "glue", in a product originally called Opera Platform]
  • 17:55 chaals notes thta Gorm seems to have been called away
  • 17:56 Rhys Jon - the suggestion for the white paper sounds good. The one thing that I'm surprised at is that it looks as though we might be able to get traction on the device APIs area.
  • chaals [Gorm Eriksen is a developer at Opera, who works on Web applications, widgets in various products, and similar stuff]
  • Rhys - seems to be a critical mass of interest and some prior art. So maybe we should work on the white paper and the use cases and requirements for the device APIs.
  • 17:57 Rhys Rotan - in terms of device APIs we might want to consider categorising them. Some give access to device capabilities, some give ability to interact with device features
  • 17:58 Rotan Device API on the server: to discover capabilities and state. On the device: to discover the capabilities and state, and to interact with device resources.
  • Rhys Jon - so we should maybe categorise as we survey what is going on in the industry. I understand that W3C has device characteristics effort, and we should stay clear of that, but maybe in other areas we could take leadership
  • Rotan APIs being driven by different standards groups: W3C, OMA etc.
  • Rhys Paddy - in the work that we are looking at, we recognise that bits of api definition are going on in different groups
  • 17:59 Rhys - we're looking at enabling layers to allow that technology to be used
  • Rhys - also the infrastructure to allow such apis to be used in a way agnostic to the underlying capabilities
  • 18:00 Rhys - seems like a higher level effort that would provide a framework to allow such apis to be used would be useful
  • Rhys Krishna - would we also need bindings for javascript?
  • 18:01 Rhys Paddy - in exactly the same way that with the hub it's possible to manage contention, these apis are the same. Web applications should be able to express dependencies in a similar way
  • <- chaals has disconnected (Remote closed the connection)
  • gorme Yes. As Chaals said, I'm developer in the Web Application team also member of W3C WebAPI
  • Rhys Paddy - I believe that there is a group of people with a real desire to move on the device APIs sooner rather than later
  • -> chaals has joined oaa-mobile
  • Rotan wonders will transcript of IRC be made available? (i.e. are we working in the open?)
  • Rhys Krishna - I agree
  • 18:04 Rotan A wiki page of links to relevant technology would be a useful start.
  • 18:11 <- Rhys has disconnected
  • <- Rotan has disconnected ("Java user signed off")
  • <- ferraiolo has disconnected
  • 00:14 <- chaals has disconnected (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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